COVID-19 Common Sense Discussion - June 29

[dan_s]

https://www.facebook.com/drericnepute/v ... 9644893326

At the link above is one doctor's OPINION about wearing masks, accuracy of COVID-19 tests, shutdowns, accuracy of how many people have died from COVID-19, etc.

One thing he covers is how the FEAR of COVID-19 makes your chance of dying from the disease higher.

Again >>> THIS IS HIS OPINION AND SO IS ALL THE CRAP ABOUT THE VIRUS BEING SPREAD BY THE MEDIA.


PS: If you're my age you may remember the FEAR that hair spray was going to destroy the OZONE and kill all of us.

[dan_s]

Note from one of our members that works on Wall Street:

"Of 4.31 billion people who have been under lockdown, 83% have reopened, up from 78% last week [despite Texas, China and Buenos Aires rollbacks]. Should reach 90-95% open by mid-July. Also, global oil demand recovery tracking ahead of expectations."

[dan_s]

Over the last two weeks CNN has been talking non-stop about the uptick in COVID-19 cases in Red States like Texas and Florida.

Fact: New York COVID-19 deaths are up over 8,000 in the last four weeks; during the same period Texas COVID-19 death are up a little over 700.

[par_putt]

Cannot believe anything. I see Montana as one of the hotspots due to increases. They like to point that out that a lot. But my granddaughter is a nurse at one of the big hospitals and she says they rarely see a covid case , when one comes up it gives them an increase of 80 or 90%. That makes it a big news item for a conservative state.. (Great falls hospital)

[dan_s]

IN MY OPINION: Political Science and not Medical Science is driving the media to keep harping on the number of cases / people who have tested positive. For months we have been told that the number of people who have COVID-19 or had it and fully recovered from it is many time higher than the number of cases confirmed by the tests. So, why is this front page news? Again, IN MY OPINION, the only thing that matters is the number of deaths. In Texas the number of deaths is still extremely low (2,424 as of this morning in a state with approximately 30,000,000 people) and it hasn't gone up much in June.

From one of our members: "I keep seeing there's a "spike" in corona cases in Texas and other states. That's because we are doing a lot more testing. If we gave more people IQ tests, there would be an alarming rise in idiots in this country too."

For those of you who do care about human life: There will be 3X more abortions in the U.S. this year than people who die from COVID-19. Many will be killed during the 9th month.

[cmm3rd]

IN MY OPINION, the only thing that matters is the number of deaths.

Here's why YOUR OPINION is uninformed and wrong. It is also why your continued claims that those who don't die "fully recover" are false. Yes, this is as reported in media, but these are doctors/scientists that are talking. They have no political agenda. To ignore their scientific findings and opinions because they are inconsistent with your narrative serves no one.

Three Months In, These Patients Are Still Ravaged By Covid’s Fallout
Doctors are studying coronavirus patients who are still experiencing symptoms or aftereffects of the disease, months after infection
Chelsea Alionar, who began experiencing symptoms of Covid-19 in March, at her home in Keizer, Ore. She helps run a Facebook group for long-term patients.
Leah Nash for The Wall Street Journal
By Sumathi Reddy
July 1, 2020 10:00 am ET

Chelsea Alionar, a 37-year-old in Keizer, Ore., is going on more than 100 days of being sick, with a racing heart beat, chest pains and numbness.

Emily Jensen, a 34-year-old surfer and runner in Minneapolis, says she now needs an inhaler just to walk up the stairs.

And Annie Harris, a 22-year-old recent college graduate, is struggling with extreme fatigue and headaches in Greenwich, Conn.
Emily Jensen initially fell sick in mid-March. ‘No one knows: Is this going to be my life for the next two years?’
Photo: Emily Jensen

All three women tested positive for Covid-19 roughly three months ago, yet they are still experiencing symptoms or aftereffects of the disease. They’re part of a group of long-term patients that doctors are increasingly studying in an effort to better understand the lasting impact of Covid.

“Only now people are beginning to realize that there are long-haul fighters like me struggling out there,” says Ms. Harris.

The science behind what’s happening is still nascent. But some theories are emerging, many of which are being tested in new studies. Some doctors believe the culprit is a neurological condition that may affect up to 15% of all Covid-19 patients. Others blame chronic fatigue syndrome. Many see a common root in immune responses gone haywire. Some doctors believe some long-term symptoms may stem at least in part from anxiety, though many patients adamantly reject that suggestion.

Long-term patients’ symptoms vary widely, from elevated heart rates and trouble breathing to gastrointestinal problems and cognitive difficulties. Many patients are younger and had previously been healthy, with Covid cases initially considered mild to moderate. But months later they are still sick, and some are getting worse.

Doctors don’t believe these people are contagious months after infection. In a few cases, patients do still test positive for the disease, but doctors think those tests are likely picking up dead traces of virus.

One place at the forefront of longer-term care is Mount Sinai Health System in New York City, which in May opened a Center for Post-Covid Care. The center follows patients who were hospitalized, as well as people with long-term symptoms who were never hospitalized.

The center is monitoring roughly 1,000 Covid-19 patients with initially mild to moderate cases, whose symptoms have lasted on average 50 to 70 days.

David Putrino, Mount Sinai’s director of rehabilitation innovation, believes most of these patients are developing a neurological condition called dysautonomia, which occurs when the autonomic nervous system is out of balance. The autonomic nervous system controls functions such as temperature, blood pressure and heart rate. Symptoms can include racing heart rate, extreme fatigue and shortness of breath.

Dr. Putrino estimates dysautonomia may affect as many as 5% to 15% of all Covid-19 patients. “That is our lead theory as to what is going on,” says Dr. Putrino. It’s unclear if the condition is triggered by an overactive immune system, if the virus itself is getting into the nervous system, or if it’s a post-viral syndrome, says Dr. Putrino.

David Putrino, Mount Sinai’s director of rehabilitation innovation, believes some Covid patients are developing a neurological condition called dysautonomia.

Mount Sinai’s Center for Post-Covid Care recently launched a program dedicated to these patients, treating them for dysautonomia with therapies such as guided exercise programs and dietary changes, says Dr. Putrino. The center is conducting several studies following long-term patients to better understand why some people recover and others don’t.

Dr. Putrino has surveyed about 600 people in social-media support groups who self-identified as “long-haul” patients. The median age was 42 years old and 80% were women, he said. But researchers say age and gender data could be skewed by the people who choose to join groups. While there is no definition of what a long-hauler is, Dr. Putrino says they are following patients who have symptoms lingering for more than four weeks.

Other possible explanations for long-haul cases include a condition called myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome, or ME/CFS. The condition is the subject of research and debate, but some scientists theorize it can be triggered by stressful events, including viruses and trauma. Symptoms may include mental fog, exercise intolerance and fatigue for at least six months.
Share Your Thoughts

Have you or has someone you know experienced longer-term problems from Covid-19? Join the discussion below.

Avindra Nath, clinical director of the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke, is developing a study to evaluate 40 Covid-19 patients experiencing ME/CFS symptoms for a week through brain scans, metabolic studies and blood tests.

Ron Davis, a professor of biochemistry and genetics at Stanford Medical Center, is also conducting a study with the nonprofit Open Medicine Foundation. He says studies have found that up to 10% of people with some viruses can develop ME/CFS. “So the concern with this coronavirus is that we will get a large number of cases,” says Dr. Davis.

Serena S. Spudich, chief of neuroinfectious diseases and global neurology at Yale, says a number of long-term patients are reporting sensory changes on their body. She believes this is likely caused by damage to the nerves that go to the skin, the result of an immune response gone haywire, which she speculates may be more likely in people with healthy immune systems.

Nerve damage can be treated with medication and peripheral nerves regenerate, but some patients experiencing cognitive issues may have a more serious brain injury. Dr. Spudich and colleagues are launching a long-term study following Covid -19 patients experiencing neurological problems.

Akiko Iwasaki, professor of immunobiology at Yale, believes there are three potential explanations for long-term symptoms: Patients have a dormant reservoir of virus in the body that periodically gets reactivated; traces of the virus in tissues are triggering inflammatory symptoms; or the immune response goes into overdrive and mistakenly starts attacking the body’s own cells.

The lack of certainty around causes and even symptoms has created challenges for people suffering from longer-term effects. In interviews with more than 20 long-haul patients ranging in age from 22 to 62 years old, a portrait emerged of patients struggling with wide-ranging symptoms. For some, it comes in waves; for others it’s constant. Some say they are slowly getting better while others add new symptoms every week.

Ms. Alionar, the 37-year-old in Keizer, Ore., helps run a Facebook group for long-haul patients, which split into two groups after membership grew to over 3,500. She says she has faced resistance from medical professionals she’s met with in dozens of appointments since she fell ill. “They tell me that there’s really no way that I could be sick with Covid this long and that I absolutely have to be depressed and anxious and it’s got to be mental health,” says Ms. Alionar, who recently resumed her job as an auditor after a 2.5-month medical leave.

Before Covid-19, Ms. Alionar enjoyed yard work, biking and walking her two pugs and Australian shepherd. Her symptoms started in March; she tested positive for Covid in April. Now her symptoms come in waves, running the gamut from a dry cough and hearing loss to heart palpitations, chest pain, fever and numbness in all extremities. At one point her cough disappeared and then came back. Then there is the headache, joint and muscle pain and extreme fatigue.

Ms. Alionar wears a monitor to track her heart beat. Her symptoms come in waves, from a dry cough and hearing loss, to heart palpitations and chest pain.
Photo: Leah Nash for The Wall Street Journal

“If I go outside and walk for 30 minutes it will put me down for two days,” she says. “If I go to Safeway, I’m down for several days. Leaving the house is not an option.”

Experts say some long-term Covid patients are experiencing severe respiratory effects and reduced lung capacity.

Those are among the many symptoms Ms. Jensen is experiencing. She fell sick in mid-March. Initially she had gastrointestinal issues and then developed a fever, cough and chest pressure.

“The next day the fatigue hit. It was like being hit by a bus,” says Ms. Jensen, an education manager for a kids’ television show.

By late March she had severe breathing issues and an intermittent fever. “I couldn’t get out of bed. I was eating canned soup from the can,” she recalls.

Understanding how the body clears the new coronavirus is becoming more important as the U.S. begins to reopen. WSJ’s Daniela Hernandez explains how the body fights infection and why feeling better doesn’t equal being virus-free. Photo illustration: Laura Kammermann

She started feeling better, but in early April she suffered a relapse. The fever and cough came back for two weeks. In mid-May she went to the emergency room with severe pain under her ribs. She had a kidney infection that had spread.

She has been feeling a little better lately but still has fatigue, brain fog, dizziness, tingling sensations and breathing issues. “If I overexert myself it’s like I take several steps back and basically can’t do anything for several days,” she says. “I’ve never had breathing issues before and now I have to use my inhaler sometimes when I’m having a conversation,” she says.

“It’s scary,” she adds. “No one knows: Is this going to be my life for the next two years?”

Some long-haulers report having previous autoimmune disorders or prior bad reactions to viruses like Epstein-Barr, which causes mononucleosis.

Annie Harris in her bedroom at her family's house in Greenwich, Conn. Since becoming ill in March, ‘it has impacted every single inch of my body,’ she says.
Photo: Susan Harris

Ms. Harris is a 22-year-old who just graduated from Colgate University in Hamilton, N.Y. She had two strong reactions to previous viruses: She was hospitalized in 2016 when she got mono and had to get iron infusions when she had a bad stomach virus in 2018.

Her symptoms started March 20 with a low-grade fever, headache and fatigue. She first tested positive for Covid on March 24. In May, she abruptly started getting severe gastrointestinal symptoms. She cut out dairy, gluten and sugar, but says she still gets nauseous and has stomach cramping.

She had a telemedicine appointment with Mount Sinai’s Post-Covid clinic and has another virtual appointment with a neurologist there in July. “It’s a really unpredictable virus,” says Ms. Harris. “It has impacted every single inch of my body.”

[dan_s]

COVID-19 may be terrible and we may NEVER FIND A CURE. Like you, I wish it would just go away, but if it doesn't we must move on.

I'm sure like all other illness on this planet there will be 100s if not 1,000s of individuals that don't fully recover. We are all different and there are many people with weak immune systems. As you've pointed out many times, I'm not a doctor.

At some point every human will get an illness that will kill him or her. Worse yet they will continue to live for awhile and suffer through a terrible period of low standard of living. We recently watched our parents go through the crap of living in a nursing home. The "lucky people" get to live long and die quickly.

COVID-19 is bad BUT the long-term impact of rolling shutdowns is also terrible. It is ruining peoples lives. You and I are EXTREMELY BLESSED to have made it to retirement age with a large enough nest egg to live out our lives with a high standard of living until we get ill, which is going to happen to 100% of us.

My concern is for young families that are not ready to retire. Think of the poor folks that had their entire life savings invested in a bar, restaurant, retail store, etc, that now cannot survive. What about the petroleum engineer that had a six figure income a few months ago and now doesn't know how he will make his next mortgage payment. TRY to grasp the despair of seeing your dreams destroyed.

If you have FEAR of the virus stay home and have all of your food and services delivered. Wear a mask wherever you go. You have the FREEDOM to do that. MOST PEOPLE DON'T. They must get out and work to survive. There is a young engineer in our neighborhood that is now going around asking if people have odd jobs for him. I love his spirit and guts not to sit around feeling sorry for himself.

Physical health and mental health are related. Poverty leads to death.

This Forum is for OPINIONS. You are free to post your opinions, which are shaped by your status in life. PLEASE be respectful of other's opinions.

[cmm3rd]

PLEASE be respectful of other's opinions.

I have been completely "respectful" in my posts here. I have not engaged in name-calling, sarcasm, shaming, or other conduct that could be characterized as disrespectful (or furthering an agenda). Nor have I posted misinformation or unsupported (and erroneous) predictions. Your characterization of me on this week's podcast, on the other hand, as "a guy on the forum who is emotional," comes much closer to being "disrespectful" than I ever have. (Other than that, I thought it was a good podcast!)

I have tried, instead, (when time permits) to point out some of the inaccuracies in your statements of fact, your predictions, and opinions. Those inaccuracies seem always to favor a rosy scenario that minimizes appreciation of risk (e.g., "Covid will be gone by July" "only one third of Covid deaths are confirmed as Covid caused," implying Covid death numbers are overstated). Just because someone desires to accurately appraise risk does not mean that they are motivated by "fear," as you so readily characterize any rebuttal to your erroneous claims and predictions. Instead, risk appraisals should be based on the most accurate information possible. insisting on accuracy is not evidence of fear. It's evidence of a desire for accuracy and avoidance of misinformation.

Another example would be your persistence (for months, and in this thread) in characterizing those who "recover" and are no longer "active cases" as "fully recovered." I have posted several times over that period articles from respected publications in which doctors and researchers involved in treating patients and trying to understand the disease's long term sequellae discuss what they are finding. Those articles have shown an increasing appreciation for the fact that resolution of acute symptoms, in a substantial number of cases, does not mean that long term secondary injuries (sometimes serious and disabling) have not occurred or will not occur. In fact, they are occurring in such patients, as the doctors in the articles have explained. So, not only are some who are no longer "active case" patients, and who have "recovered," not actually "fully recovered," the number in whom long term sequellae are manifesting is increasing as medicine learns more about this new, difficult disease.

Despite such posts, you persist, without pointing out any evidence, in characterizing patients who are no longer "active cases," (no longer exhibiting acute symptoms and then testing negative) as "fully" recovered. Such a characterization is inaccurate and misleading. Even if unintentionally so, it still is inaccurate and misleading.

People, when judging what risks they want to take, should be doing so using accurate information. That is not an "emotional" or "disrespectful" position, nor is pointing out when information that is posted here is false or misleading, emotional or disrespectful and therefore to be condemned. At least not in the USA that I think we both want to live in, where open discussion and debate is traditionally the method by which collectively we better understand the environment in which we live.

I share many of your opinions and sympathies, including that staged opening is appropriate, and that people should be allowed to choose what they will do, particularly now that we have adequate PPE for health care providers whom our society "requires" to treat those who get sick, and now that we have adequate beds and ventilators, etc., so long as mitigation measures can protect the vulnerable. That is why those making choices should be doing so on the basis of accurate information that bears on risk. Misinforming them increases the risk that their choices will be misinformed (which is happening with too much frequency, from what I read anecdotally).

I also empathize with those who are of working age and especially those who have a family to feed and care for. (Btw, I am still working, now 60 hours per week, and know all about the exposure risks one must take, as I am being required by what I do to take risks to represent my clients properly.) Again, such working people should have substantial freedom to choose what risks to undertake, but it is critical for them and their families that their choices be informed, not misinformed.

Peace.

[dan_s]

I agree 100% that some people will always be sick. As we age we NEVER fully recover from anything.