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COVID-19 -- Doctors explain

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:31 am
by cmm3rd
This from a board-certified pathologist specializing in clinical microbiology. Note his conclusion: The key is to buy time.


What You Were Afraid To Ask About #Coronavirus
[Latest update: March 17th]

This is a sort-of FAQ that started as a Facebook post from a relative. I hope it serves as a quick and easy read that explains why the plan to get through the #COVID19 #coronavirus pandemic through #flattenthecurve tactics is needed.

Credentials: I am a board-certified pathologist on staff at multiple hospitals in my metro area with a specialty in clinical microbiology; among my duties, I run several clinical microbiology labs. I was trained in the Harvard hospital affiliate system.

Disclaimer: I am on parental leave; I cannot and do not speak for any of the hospitals I work at. My license is only for Alabama, and my certifications do not extend to direct patient care. Translation: I am not your personal physician, and you should call (don’t visit!) your own doctor’s office for any issues that specifically affect you.

This is as accurate as I could make it at the time I wrote it, but this is a fast moving event and humanity as a whole is learning more by the hour, so stay tuned.

1) “Coronavirus itself is not deadly.”

FALSE, BUT:
Most cases of coronavirus are not fatal, which is what I think you meant to say. In fact, all indications are that most cases are without detectable symptoms (“asymptomatic”).

This is worth repeating: MOST OF THOSE SPREADING THE VIRUS FEEL FINE.

1a) Follow-up: “What makes coronavirus so deadly?”

It’s a rapid release of fluid into the lungs from the inside, filling the airsacs and blocking oxygen from reaching the bloodstream. The technical term is ARDS: “acute respiratory distress syndrome”. (That doesn’t really explain it well, though, does it?) We know it has links to the immune system, but it’s still pretty mysterious, even when caused by things other than viruses.
2) “Coronavirus can cause pneumonia, which is also often not deadly.”

MIXED:
Pneumonia, a type of infection of the lungs, is often not deadly *when properly treated*. The entire concern around coronavirus centers on the possibility that we might not be able to treat everyone at once. More on that below.

2a) Follow-up: "My understanding is also that many are getting viral pneumonia which can only be treated supportively, as opposed to bacterial pneumonia which can be treated with antibiotics. Is that true?"

MIXED:
This is one of the key differences between coronavirus and flu: The flu does NOT directly cause the pneumonia, but coronavirus DOES. The flu simply ties up the immune system and leaves a lowered guard against bacteria trying to invade the lungs.

If the pneumonia itself is caused by ordinary bacteria, we can use ordinary antibiotics. But antibiotics only work on bacteria, not viruses.

Antiviral drugs DO work on viruses; Tamiflu is an example, as are the drugs that make HIV a chronic illness instead of a death sentence. But since this is a brand new virus, we don’t know what antivirals, if any, will work. And even if they do work, they may work like Tamiflu does, not curing the disease but merely reducing symptoms and shortening the illness.

Emergency-speed clinical trials on antivirals began this morning [March 16th] to figure out what antivirals might help. But the only way to find out is to try them and see what happens, so it will take at least weeks, probably months, to find out.

3) “Pneumonia is most likely to be deadly to at-risk populations like the elderly and immunocompromised.”

TRUE.
“Immunocompromised” are those whose immune systems are not working at the usual level of efficiency. It doesn’t mean you have no immune system, it just means that it works at a lower level, or that one or more components is missing.

“Immunocompromised” usually means a number of groups: the elderly, transplant recipients,those with chronic diseases (including but not limited to HIV), pregnant ladies, and the very young.

For reasons we do not yet understand, coronavirus seems to be mostly skipping babies and pregnant ladies -- they aren't getting infected at higher rates or with higher chances of death. Researchers are working hard on understanding this as it may help with treatments and/or vaccines. However, there is at least one case of a pregnant woman sick with coronavirus, whose baby also tested positive after birth. We will have to be very careful with those pregnant ladies who do catch the virus, and we have no idea what the effect on newborns might be.

4) “Pneumonia doesn’t have to be deadly for the at-risk hospitalizations as long as they are able to be hospitalized.”

TRUE, BUT:
The most critical need is not just hospital beds, but mechanized breathing assistance. Simple supports like extra oxygen, extra fluids, etc. will suffice for most hospitalized cases, but 5% of so will need intensive care - intubation,ventilation, and/or ECMO (“heart-lung machine”). These are the most limited resources. ICU beds make up only 10% of hospital beds.

5) “...which usually isn’t a problem as long as 1% of the population doesn’t need to be hospitalized all at once.”

TRUE, AND:
Especially true when 5% of that 1% need precious ICU equipment, much of which is already caring for others. Even 0.05% of the population is many times what we can cram into the country’s intensive care capacity.

PLUS:
Those machines are complicated. A field hospital can be slapped together in days or even hours; the Armed Forces have lots of experience at that (think “M*A*S*H for the 21st century). But those machines usually take 90 days or so to build.

Unless we seriously #flattenthecurve, we don’t have ninety days. Not to mention that if the hospitals do get overwhelmed, the doctors won’t have time to docare for most other problems. Elective surgeries are already being cancelled, for instance.

6) “So if you have symptoms of the virus, treat it like a cold or flu, noproblem.”

I hate to do this to you, but FALSE, and here’s why:

If the nasty thing is going to whammy you, it waits a while first.

Judging from experience in China and South Korea, symptoms appear on average after five days (big wobble on that, two to nine days depending on amount of exposure). For the first week you only feel mild symptoms.

It’s about seven days, on average, after first symptoms that the bad pneumonia phase seems to set in. So *if* you’re going to get a bad case, it *won’t* be obvious immediately. Treat it like a cold or flu BUT keep an eye on symptoms.

And that is why we have to #flattenthecurve as fast as possible. From the time your area goes into lockdown, it will likely take an average of TWELVE DAYS for the effects to show (five days average before symptoms, plus seven days average before needing the hospital bed).

The number of confirmed cases (in places not in lockdown) has been going up by a factor of 10 per week. So in twelve days there will be ABOUT 75 TIMES the number of cases. See now why we are “overreacting”?

7) “If you think you have symptoms of pneumonia, call your doctor for instructions. If you’re not in an at-risk population, then you’re likely to still just treat it at home so as not to overwhelm the hospitals.”

TRUE.
And a great lead-in from 6), because that’s what you need to look for... and *call first* because we healthcare workers really can’t keep exposing everyone to everyone else even for treatment purposes. After all, WE have to stay healthy (or at least enough of us at any one time) in order to keep the hospitals open!

8) "There is no evidence that #COVID19 is being spread by individuals with no symptoms, right?"

There is no *direct* evidence in the United States, or most of the world. This is because of our limited ability to test, not because it's false. What we *can* detect is that we can't establish "chain of infection": that is, people are getting symptomatic, test positive, and we can't figure out who they caught it from. That implies that someone not being tested is spreading virus.

That's happening a *lot*, and in a *huge* number of places -- in fact, pretty much every new place getting their first tests. The math just doesn't work unless people who don't think they're sick are spreading virus particles.

Final thought:

The key is to buy time. Time for more ICU machines to be built; time for antivirals and vaccines to be tested; time for hospital space to be built; time for extra workers to be trained. Stay home, stay safe, stay healthy everyone. Together we can make it through this!

--Allen Bryan (Tw: @awbryanjr)

Re: COVID-19 -- Doctors explain

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 9:36 am
by cmm3rd
This from a Pediatric Emergency Medicine physician. Note his lead point #1.

Rarely post on Facebook but as a pediatric ER doctor hopefully I can give some reality of the current situation and clear some of the misinformation and questions up for my non-medical friends/family and acquaintances about COVID-19 that people may have heard from social media, the government, regular media, crazy neighbor or anywhere else. So below are my own thoughts/opinions about getting through this COVID-19 pandemic (hopefully I don’t have to tell any of you to not be hoarders):

1. Social distancing is key right now. Please take this seriously, it is all of our responsibilities to do what is right for the greater good of people (altruism). Cancel travel plans, please don’t go to church, avoid sitting in restaurants and bars (supporting small business with take-out and delivery I am all on-board with), I fully expect more large companies and schools to continue to cancel and shut down in the next few weeks, and largely this is probably the right decision medically and ethically. Social distancing “flattens the curve”. If we don’t do this and the curve spikes instead of flattens and hospital systems are overrun we are in trouble—think about when everyone rushed at once to buy TP and hand sanitizers and there was a shortage, except this time its a shortage of your ability to see an ER doc, get a needed hospital or ICU bed, be intubated or on a ventilator that could save yours or a loved one's life.

2.This is not overblown. Doctors and hospitals are worried about this. It is not a media scare tactic- our media did not influence other countries, i.e. Italy to shut down their sports, travel and entire country while ICUs and hospitals were being overrun with sick and dying well before cases started dramatically increasing here. This is a national emergency (Dr Fauci seems to be giving good/honest info lately so pay attention when he says stuff). This is not “like the flu or a cold”. For approx 80% of people who become infected it will have annoying symptoms like a cold and some are asymptomatic. But for another 12-15% of people it will require hospitalization and oxygen support and the rest…well they end up requiring ICU care which may include intubation with breathing tubes and ventilator machines to keep breathing, ECMO (feel free to google), medicine to maintain blood pressure and hopefully if things go perfect...stay alive. Thats a large percentage and a lot of affected people.

3. Despite what many of our leaders have publicly stated…there IS NOT testing readily available still. In almost all of the country, me or any other doctor in an emergency department or urgent care can not test you at their discretion (and not at drive thrus, CVS, wal-mart, walgreens, etc). We have strict guidelines on who we can test. You may possibly be tested if you have symptoms and have just travelled from a country of high infection rate, SF, Seattle or NYC, come in close contact with an actual confirmed case and have fever+cough, or get hospitalized with respiratory failure and we don’t have a cause (never good) --other than that at this time probably not. Damn, trust me I really wish we had tests so we could know the extent of this infection and get a handle on it faster but that is not reality. Hopefully this changes sooner rather than later

4. If you or your child has a few days of fever, cough, runny nose, body aches please stay at home and self-quarantine unless you are at the point you think hospitalization is required. Like I said above, at this point widespread testing is still not a reality. Saw 20 kids last night with fever and cough that I told had a respiratory viral infection.Could it be COVID? Sure, or it could be one of the other 10 respiratory viruses floating around—no way to know right now. No additional testing or medication given to almost all of them.

5. There is no treatment right now. Antibiotics will do nothing. Anti-viral meds are being tested in clinical trials but not available currently. There is no vaccine and from my understanding would be realistically 1-2 years away from development and distribution anyway.

6. Kids under 10 years old are faring the best right now from what we know. We all already know the older you are the higher the risk. There are low mortality rates in people under 40 years old. That being said, people under 40 ARE getting sick, intubated, ICU, etc. There will be what we call “morbidity” or a lasting health impact from the illness for many of these young adults whether it be lung scarring with less healthy lung for the rest of their life, long-term oxygen needs, etc. So young adults do not always come out unscathed.

I am no infectious disease expert or epidemiologist and there is plenty more to discuss, but hopefully this helps a lot of my non-medical friends and family understand more about the reality of the situation and what we can do individually to help. Hopefully in the next 2-3 weeks we all will have a better read on how this plays out in our great country. This is very fluid, and who knows this post may be outdated very quickly. Until then, take care of each other. Social distance to the best of your ability-getting out in public only when necessary. Hand hygiene—obviously. Stay healthy. Don’t panic but be appropriately informed and make decisions that are for the greater good.

And when this is hopefully less severe and infects/kills less than what we expected it IS NOT because we overreacted. It is because we appropriately reacted and took these life changing measures and made sacrifices.
-Josh 3/16/2020 11am PST

Re: COVID-19 -- Doctors explain

Posted: Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:12 am
by dan_s
Good stuff.

Susan father died at age 72 from flu that gave him pneumonia. It is our opinion that he actually died from an infection that he picked up in the hospital. He did have a pre-existing heart condition that definitely did not help.

MY HOPE is that the World Health Organization is checking into why China, South Korea and Japan seem to have COVID-19 under control. My guess is that the "cure" will be found in the large number of people who have fully recovered.


Susan sent me a text that she got: "The World Health Organisation" has confirmed that dogs cannot get COVID-19, so .... WHO let the dogs out!